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Bug #5526

We can't add teacher of a course in a group

Added by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago. Updated about 4 years ago.

Status:
New
Priority:
Normal
Assignee:
-
Category:
Users/Groups
Target version:
Start date:
25/09/2012
Due date:
% Done:

0%

Estimated time:
Complexity:
Normal
SCRUM pts - complexity:
?

Description

Hi,
I go in the Group tool and I want to add some teacher of a course in groups, but they are not in the list.
see attached


Files

2012-09-25_0941.png (125 KB) 2012-09-25_0941.png User list of a course Hubert Borderiou, 25/09/2012 09:43
2012-09-25_0941_001.png (32.5 KB) 2012-09-25_0941_001.png Add user to a group Hubert Borderiou, 25/09/2012 09:43
Sans-titre-2.png (18.2 KB) Sans-titre-2.png Hubert Borderiou, 05/10/2012 15:03

Associated revisions

Revision abbc85c9 (diff)
Added by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago

Add teacher in group list - ref #5526

History

#1

Updated by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago

  • Assignee set to Hubert Borderiou
  • Target version set to 1.9.2

In function /main/inc/lib|groupmanager.lib.php > fill_groups_list
line 1686 : $complete_user_list = self :: filter_only_students($complete_user_list);
Why do you filter only students ? teachers need to be in groups too, especially as tutor.

#2

Updated by Luis Jeremias Saavedra Bendezu over 7 years ago

  • Category set to Users/Groups
  • Target version changed from 1.9.2 to 1.9.4

Yannick writing: There is something more we need to investigate about groups tutors, because I remember there was something special about changing the status of a user in the users tool. The teachers normally should have access to all groups resources (they need to grade them). If this is not the case, it needs to be fixed. Otherwise I'll need more info about the problem itself to consider the way to fix it properly.

Moving to 1.9.4 (the report came too short before the release and it doesn't really provide an undiscussable solution)

#3

Updated by Julio Montoya over 7 years ago

As I far as I remember a teacher can control all groups, so what's the idea of being a group moderator? That's why the filter was there.

I think Hubert already sent a "fix" for this task commenting this line (the fatal error bug in 1.9.2)

//$complete_user_list = self :: filter_only_students($complete_user_list);

Personally I don't agree with that change because we would have some problems with the permissions ...

#4

Updated by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago

It worked like that before, so users are used to use the tool like that.

We cannot remove this possibility.
In a course teachers sometime need to be tutor.
I've got courses too, where everybody is teacher (they need to), and they have created groups for them, because they had to work like that.

Teachers really need this functionnality. If you want, in some case, to remove this functionnality, we had to had an configuration option.

#5

Updated by Julio Montoya over 7 years ago

Hubert Borderiou wrote:

It worked like that before, so users are used to use the tool like that.

We cannot remove this possibility.
In a course teachers sometime need to be tutor.
I've got courses too, where everybody is teacher (they need to), and they have created groups for them, because they had to work like that.

Teachers really need this functionnality. If you want, in some case, to remove this functionnality, we had to had an configuration option.

That's a good argument to have teachers as a "group tutors". Because we already ship the code with that change, the group tool should be tested with the "new permission".

#6

Updated by Yannick Warnier over 7 years ago

Just to clear things up: I would never ask for a feature to be removed without proper reasonning :-) (and without adding an option to disable/enable it).
So the fact that the feature might have disappeared is probably just a case of a hasty change somewhere else by someone who didn't know about the group tutor.

#7

Updated by Julio Montoya over 7 years ago

I found the task where this behaviour was changed see #1949

#8

Updated by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago

Oh, yes... I see
What do you think now ?

#9

Updated by Julio Montoya over 7 years ago

Adding Marko as a watcher ...

#10

Updated by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago

Thanks.

I think the less we make exceptions in tools, the easier the platform will be.
I'm a teacher, I've created some groups, and I want to populate my groups.
What I'm looking for is a list of users in my course.
I click on the pencil, and I see a list of users, great ! Why should we filter the list to display only learners ? It is written nowhere, and I don't think it is more logical.

To me, if we want to filters this list, we could do it a different way :
- add a checkbox "[ ] display only learners"
or
- add an symbol [teacher] before, or after the user name
or
- split the list
[---Teachers---]
......
......
[---Learners---]
......
......

Waiting for your feedback.
regards,
hubert

#11

Updated by Marko Kastelic over 7 years ago

hi Hubert,

i'm not opposed returning teachers to the list. Currently we are using enrolment for the teachers as ordinary course users (students) so we can assign them as tutors, but don't let them to control the course. Tutors (group role) can manage group tools, but we experience lack of using regular course tools as attendances, dropbox, ...
Pitfall(s) of enrolling teacher-tutor as regular course user is that all course stats are wrong since teachers-tutors are included in. In this place i'm missing a separate course role as assistant teacher/visiting teacher/associate teacher or something opose to 'full teacher-course owner,' .

to summarize

In a course teachers sometime need to be tutor.
I've got courses too, where everybody is teacher (they need to), and they have created groups for them, because they had to work like that.

( hm, shared repositories, very dangerous )

1) if there is more than one teacher, all of them can control all the groups
2) teacher cannot be assigned as group 'tutor' - teacher cannot be visualized in groups 'tutor' field, so 'ownership' cannot be determined visualy

looks like second case is the main problem. Since there is more than one teacher in the course, i vote for your first option (checkbox for including teacher to the list not versa)

#12

Updated by Hubert Borderiou over 7 years ago

Ok, I understand your point of view.
You're opposed to returning teacher in the list, and my teachers use it like that for 8 years now (Dok, then Chamilo), and are used to work with it.
If you remove teachers, that were visible before, you remove information and functionnality.

We both need a different behaviour for this tool, both with good reason, as a result I suggest we add a checkbox, or ask a referee ;-)

[] Hide teachers from list
Adding a symbol to mark teachers in the list, should be a plus.

See attached.

#13

Updated by Marko Kastelic over 7 years ago

let me quote myself

hi Hubert,

i'm not opposed returning teachers to the list .....(snip)

and again:

looks like second case is the main problem. Since there is more than one teacher in the course, i vote for your first option (checkbox for including teacher to the list not versa)

returning teachers to the list does not influence any of the processes we currently using. I just want to see the list without the teachers as default behaviour and the list with them when selecting the option.

#14

Updated by Yannick Warnier over 7 years ago

Let me act as a referee :-)
You both agree on returning the teachers in the list, just that for one they should be in the list by default, for the other not.

So... I think the best solution is to add the option as a course_setting, not as a checkbox.
Something that says: "Show teachers in the group tutors list"

Because it was there before (and was only recently removed without much of a discussion), the default behaviour should be for it to remain there.
Of course, we could add a system-wide option that says which default value is set at course creation, if deemed necessary by Marko.

Generally speaking, removing features will always generate frustrations, so it should be avoided (in favor of milder changes, like putting things in a slightly less visible position or font).
In this case, the institution in which Hubert works (which has no commercial relation with either myself, my company or the association, just in case) is the first large-scale implementation of Chamilo in a French university, and their teachers are often queried about their opinion on the system by other French institutions. Combined with the fact France is a very good market for the Chamilo platform (because most of our developers speak French), it could substantially boost the development of Chamilo in the future, so unless Marko has a better case overall (which I do not discard), it seems to be important to have something that works for both of you.

#15

Updated by Marko Kastelic over 7 years ago

i agree with you in everything but course_setting and from my first post in this thread you can see, that i met some barriers when using 1 teacher and non-teaching tutors. Many of the problems can be solved by using session-course with many instructors. But let we return to the course

teacher of the course usualy controls who is enroled to the course; so the teacher-owner decides that the course will have more than one teacher --- course_setting is thus unnecessary; 'setting' is achieved by enrolling another teacher.

There's but 'problems' with populating groups. Let's suppose the course with 4 groups, 5 teachers and many students:
tipical scenario: populate groups with students, assing one or more teacher(s) to every single group
i will do the task like : auto-populate groups with students, than edit every single group, than add/asssign teacher(s) to the selected groups (member, tutor). If auto-population process adds teachers to the groups: 1) all can be in the same group, 2) teacher can be in the wrong group. 3) Repositioning teacher(s) between the groups is needed, repositioning results in uneven distribution of students between the groups.

I can reverse the procedure: first add teachers to the group and assign them as tutors, than auto-populate groups with students (rest of the places). If there is one teacher that should not be a member of any group, i have to find where is placed and remove that teacher from the group. Again some exercising with groups members.

in both cases, i have to select/filter a type of users to work with: teachers or students. So i support Hubbert's idea about the check-box regardless of its state.

#16

Updated by Yannick Warnier about 7 years ago

  • Assignee deleted (Hubert Borderiou)
  • Target version changed from 1.9.4 to 2.0

I guess moving this to 1.10 is the wisest decision for now (given it seems to require database changes).
This being said, I'm not in a particular hurry to develop it and would much prefer for the people concerned by this change to provide a patch that they test themselves and which would match their requirements :-p

#17

Updated by Yannick Warnier about 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 2.0 to 3.0

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