but I'm going to enjoy a nice bowl of soup now ... and I'm actually taking the rest of my vacation day off (the irony is not lost on me) ... so talk to you later ! buy.... bey * ScaraMcDuck has quit (Quit: To infinity ... and beyond !) * ScaraMcDuck (~ScaraMcDu@72.105-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #chamilo * stephane_k has quit (Quit: Quitte) back * Kariboe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024001]) * has_left (c1bf9c1c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.191.156.28) has joined #chamilo * Kariboe (~chatzilla@193.191.156.13) has joined #chamilo * has_left has quit (Client Quit) :-) * has_joined (c1bf9c1c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.191.156.28) has joined #chamilo * has_joined has quit (Client Quit) * has_joined_or_qu (c1bf9c1c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.191.156.28) has joined #chamilo * has_joined_or_qu has quit (Client Quit) * goulwen (~goulwen@lns-bzn-24-82-64-130-108.adsl.proxad.net) has joined #chamilo * laurent1 (~lopprecht@lopp.unige.ch) has left #chamilo * ScaraMcDuck has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) * goulwen (~goulwen@lns-bzn-24-82-64-130-108.adsl.proxad.net) has left #chamilo * _Alex__ has quit (Quit: Page closed) * THLU has quit (Remote host closed the connection) * laurentopprecht (~laurent@lopp.unige.ch) has joined #chamilo * laurentopprecht1 (~laurent@lopp.unige.ch) has joined #chamilo * laurentopprecht has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) * Kariboe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024001]) * laurentopprecht1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) * albert1t0 (~albert1t0@64.76.110.202) has joined #chamilo * pjbr (~pbro196@193.191.156.15) has left #chamilo * laurentopprecht (~laurent@lopp.unige.ch) has joined #chamilo * ScaraMcDuck (~ScaraMcDu@72.105-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) has joined #chamilo * Michela (~mmosquera@190.187.21.53) has joined #chamilo * Svennie has quit (Remote host closed the connection) * goulwen (~goulwen@lns-bzn-24-82-64-130-108.adsl.proxad.net) has joined #chamilo I'm a *little* bit after the fight but this is my suggestion after having read all the discussion : Maybe the solution is NOT to ADD tools/procedures/schema/anything. Maybe we should REMOVE some of our tools (have you seen the number of project which don't have a forum ) so that the remaining ones have a much bigger visibility and activity I'm wondering what would happen if we tried to close all the forums and dev-list and do not respond to direct mail but only use redmine (as good or bad as it can be) maybe we should try for a while... (and also close irc which is defintely eating too much time ) you could eliminate all less formal means of communication doubt it would be a good idea but IRC is actually taking up too much time It would effectively shut down project visibility the only reason I can follow it now is because I'm not at work If you want to generate buzz, you want open channels redmine is pretty closed. I think you can see some things while not logged in, but it does not appear very "open" it's not easy to participate if you're actually working on something and want to focus true (especially not if afterwards people say they discussed it on the channel 88) whoops this ain't msn ... tha was supposed to be a X-D I would personnaly for forum as the one remaining channel because I think it is the best compromise but in the end I think it is important to see things clearly : We are a SMALL community with way too much channels of communication and we can't all follow all the channels of communications we have opened. This is why I proposed to recenter our communication on a single channel... it will be more adapted for some communication th an for other but in the end it will allow all of us to go at that center place to communcate with the not so many other people of the community Speaking of which, I meant to ask you: how do you deal with threads on forums in your RSS reader? IMHO the problem chamilo has with its communication channels is the same it has with it's features : it is way too ambitious related to its size and resources in the end it's all fine by me ... I feel like it's not up to me to make any kind of decission or even propose anything you can NEVER be too ambitious ;-) sjamaan : RSS is just there no notyfy me of the post : the rss titles include the forum name and post title but it's objective is to notify me a new post has been added The entire "D" issue didn't help though :( Systho: Yeah, but how do you know whether you want to read the post? If you can't immediately see what thread it belongs to, that seems a bit hard Mutt draws a nice ASCII tree that shows message ancestry, which is very useful in determining who responded to what, and what belongs to which thread And all that at a single glance, without opening the message I do sign up to what forum/sub-forum/topic I want to follow. when I have to many notifications I unsubscribe and go manually check from times to times Marking a thread as read if I'm not interested in it is easy Oh god, that sounds like a pain maybe it's not the best but I'm used to it and most nontech are too (And do not forget the "new messages since your last visit" feature) It doesn't scale at all maybe not but that's precisely what I wanted to point out we are small Chamilo is, but the list of potential other projects someone might be following is not let's take that as an advantage and think what are the best tool for a small community And that's where the problem lies I'm ok to test with mailing list as the one communication channel I'd prefer focusing on them following us before focusing on them following other things ;-) I personally use both mailing lists and forums, depending on the project :) and Nabble is a perfect kind off crossover for those who can't get over the difference :) ScaraMcDuck: But people already do follow other things. If you make it hard for them to follow you along with other projects, they might decide not to follow you at all sure ... but some projects use forums, some use mailing lists but it is important to realize that now having alll those channel is a disadvantage, everybody follows his preffered one and nobody is aware of all communication (some people do but it takes a lot of time from them) For instance, what happens in the ticket tracker is mostly going right by me, I just follow the mailinglist because that's easy - it just comes in I have the same problem with Drupal - they're even worse because you can't subscribe to tickets properly @Systho: I second that +1 So could we agree that it is plausible that adopting less tools instead of the right tools could be a good idea it could be Adopting the wrong tools is a bad idea though I didn't say that But yes, there are too many tools and they're used wrong and I would certainly agree that AND IRC AND a forum AND the mailing list AND the redmine is taking up a lot of time wrong in your opinion maybe sjamaan maybe I'll get lynched but .... .... what about closing irc ScaraMcDuck: If nobody thought they were being used wrong we wouldn't be discussing the topic lynchings are on wednesdays, so don't worry its usage is very close to either a forum , either an email and irc is causing a lot of frustration and loss of time IRC should be optional If there's one thing I've learned it's that people enjoy discussing things even when there's no problem at all (we DO havea problem though) ;-) Right now it's frustrating for some people who want to be kept in the loop to log in on some "foreign" (to them) medium every friday we might keep it for fridays meeting and that's all Systho: I think the value of IRC for direct help should not be understated the idea behind the IRC is ok, some kind of communication that's direct I agree I like the idea it is a good tool but it takes up too much time to be honest but the benefits or having one less tool could be great If it's optional, just "community support", that's fine too Of course this should be stated clearly on the site yep Official support through redmine & mailinglists, for example tbh I do like IRC a lot, it gives me a real feeling to talk to you but on the other hand that feeling might be kept with an active forum/mailing list that's the downside of direct communication channels: people expect direct answers (hence why I hate the telephone at work) (I only have an outgoing phone at work ^^) lucky you :-O hh heh I guess what we want is something which feels like direct communication but with rather good structure and archived right now the forum is not used because its main objective is discussion and discussion are etiher made via chat or via irc and therefore some people feel excluded from discussions I think IRC should not be optional, it should not be used at all except for friday meeting. Forum might be worse tools but at least they do not exclude people and are less stranger tools (and are much more browseable than a irc log) a lot of forums are somewhat "bloated" for quick direct communication, which would be my guess as to why people resort to instant messaging Systho: What's "strange" about IRC? It's my primary means of communication for many projects It's especially great for quick questions If I get stuck with hg, I ask in #mercurial. It's much quicker than posting to the ML Same for postgres sorry my english was not good enough, I meant a tool which is not very well known by everyone Unless it's an elaborate question yes but what if your question was already answered 5 times on IRC but not a single time on an easily acessible forum ? I always search the web before asking If it's on some forum, I'd find it, but often it's not I agree that email is th ebest tool for being notified, and IRC for discussing, and ticket for bug request Anyway, what's wrong with having IRC around for community support? The main communication problem is that the right people are not getting the right information. That means IRC should not be used for official communication, but for helping people it's fine no it's not it implies that supporting people must be connected and give their time to that tool instead of another (everybody's day is 24hr) as I said I agree IRC is probably the best tool for discussing I'm not trying to argue on that but it excludes people from those discussion if they do not want to pay the price (the price is a lot of time) Nobody _must_ be connected It's a volunteer effort There doesn't even have to be anyone from the core team here That's how many channels on freenode operate mmhhhh ok I see what you mean then it needs to be very, VERY, clear that this is not a channel for official communication (which it semi-is right now) but then we need to be very clear that "official" support will be done at a single point but people can try their luck on irc yes so ... good luck with that :p Also remove the IRC button on the website, maybe makes sense And the twitter one too, while you're at it. Is it even used? * jw_tRenDzeTter has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) I know out south american buddies use it It wasn't mentioned by anyone in our discussion, so I doubt a lot of people consider it high priority, and they might not even be aware of it it's more of a marketing tool IMO not too relevant in our context It's displayed prominently on the official website. On every single page That makes it look quite "official" About forum AND mailing list, django-fr has developed a tool to sync the historical ML with a forum. That may be a solution This discussion rings a bell http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-11/msg00660.php IIRC it went nowhere (it's a follow up to http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2010-11/msg00610.php ) Their software could be an alternative if someone wants to give it a shot yep I've thought about that idea yesterday and the point you mentioned about editing post maybe if we have a tool like that , the ml-forum interop could be done in a subforul where edition/deletion is forbidden for everyone but root Maybe a forum can be configured to disallow editing posts yeah, what you said :) it doesn't prevent other subforul to behave normally and it doesn't prevent people to send direct email if they want ;) great minds :p I'll add a section to the wiki with that idea cool "The postgresql experience" ;) A great experience! :) uhm ... you know that's actually exactly what Nabble does ... it provides a forum view on a mailing list and whatever you add to the forum gets posted to the mailing list and vice versa yeah, but nabble looks second-rate Nobody wants to use that... do they? you mean more second rate then the antiquated idea of maing lists ? *mailing What's antiquated about it? All the major projects use it If it's good enough for postgresql, it's good enough for chamilo I'd say at any rate it's just the concept I was interested in, what tool is used to achieve the effect, I don't care about * goulwen (~goulwen@lns-bzn-24-82-64-130-108.adsl.proxad.net) has left #chamilo * fervaille (~fervaille@berenice.ipm.ucl.ac.be) has joined #chamilo I didn't know about Nabble I'll add it to the wiki too I don't think we should use that as such, and the concept is the same :) ok I've just added a "plz check nabble" section then ;) * fervaille has quit (Quit: fervaille) * koltempleister has quit (Quit: Leaving.) * laurentopprecht (~laurent@lopp.unige.ch) has left #chamilo I'm leaving, ++ * Loaded log from Fri Mar 11 19:58:48 2011 * Now talking on #chamilo * Topic for #chamilo is: Welcome to Chamilo * Topic for #chamilo set by Svennie at Mon Feb 8 15:47:30 2010