Conversation with #chamilo at Wed 09 Mar 2011 09:49:54 AM CET on NathalieB@barjavel.freenode.net (irc)

(09:49:54 AM) The topic for #chamilo is: Welcome to Chamilo
(10:35:26 AM) jmontoya [~jmontoya@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-48-229.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr] entered the room.
(10:50:25 AM) Anto [~Anto@d252f.ipm.ucl.ac.be] entered the room.
(10:53:01 AM) laurent1 [~lopprecht@lopp.unige.ch] entered the room.
(10:57:09 AM) Systh0: quick question
(10:57:24 AM) Systh0: file admin/install/admin_installer line 102
(10:57:47 AM) Systh0: there is an variable $xml_data['english']
(10:57:53 AM) Systh0: which comes from nowhere
(10:58:06 AM) Systh0: but obviously the install works
(10:58:13 AM) Systh0: can someone help me on this variable ?
(10:59:22 AM) ScaraMcDuck: I would guess it should have been $package_info['package']['extra']['english']
(10:59:46 AM) Systh0: ok thanks
(11:00:45 AM) THLU left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
(11:04:48 AM) THLU [~Ludwig@78-21-248-123.access.telenet.be] entered the room.
(11:05:41 AM) Kariboe: laurent1: I see various issues on the support website but with no version .. is it possible to add a version to them?
(11:09:26 AM) laurent1: like which version of Chamilo we target?
(11:09:32 AM) laurent1: sure
(11:09:53 AM) laurent1: If I don't take ownership of an issue I usually leave it blank
(11:10:08 AM) laurent1: but anybody is welcomed to modify those
(11:12:00 AM) Systh0: if you're ok I will remove the automatic testsuite I'm writing for installer from the core-testsuite, because I'm pretty everybody consider that the test should run on an installed system
(11:13:31 AM) sjamaan: Systh0: Note that the installer is rather broken; it inserts stuff in nonexisting tables at some point. I fixed those things in my postgres work
(11:13:52 AM) Systh0: I know it is not broken
(11:14:03 AM) Systh0: I'm just trying to prove it with a testsuite
(11:14:27 AM) sjamaan: It _is_ broken, unless this has been fixed independently
(11:14:34 AM) sjamaan: AFAIK my changes haven't been integrated
(11:14:43 AM) Systh0: and after that i'll be able to refactor it so that we can easily make cli install (and I know cli install has already been written but it is a bit broken at the moment)
(11:15:18 AM) sjamaan: I believe it's the admin app which registers itself at the point when there is no application registry table yet
(11:15:34 AM) sjamaan: Not sure on the specifics anymore
(11:16:07 AM) sjamaan: It doesn't fail because mysql/mdb2 is set to ignore errors (even ones as serious as that)
(11:16:14 AM) Systh0: mmmhhh i haven't got any exception but on the other hand I have partially silenced mdb2 ...
(11:16:24 AM) sjamaan: It doesn't throw exceptions.
(11:16:42 AM) sjamaan: Look at the code; errors are ignored or the code just returns false, but the calling code doesn't do anything with that
(11:16:50 AM) Systh0: mmmhhhh
(11:16:52 AM) sjamaan: I refactored the Database class to throw exceptions in a lot of places
(11:17:01 AM) Systh0: I'll check that when I'll do the refactoring
(11:17:04 AM) sjamaan: That's why my change causes so much breakage
(11:17:08 AM) Systh0: for now I focus on the tests
(11:17:18 AM) ***sjamaan shrugs
(11:17:28 AM) sjamaan: Fine with me
(11:17:35 AM) sjamaan: If you don't mind failing tests...
(11:17:37 AM) Systh0: then when you will commit your changes my tests will fail because of you
(11:17:49 AM) Systh0: and we'll see the problems more accurately
(11:18:00 AM) Systh0: I do mind failing tests
(11:18:04 AM) sjamaan: But please be careful not to write tests that check for the current wrong behaviour as if it was the correct one
(11:18:08 AM) Systh0: this is why I write them ;)
(11:18:24 AM) sjamaan: |11:16| ( Systh0) then when you will commit your changes my tests will fail because of you
(11:18:30 AM) sjamaan: No, the tests should fail today
(11:18:41 AM) sjamaan: After my changes are committed, they should pass
(11:19:01 AM) Systh0: I understand your pov
(11:19:06 AM) sjamaan: Like I said, the table doesn't exist; the admin (or some similar core) app isn't registered
(11:19:11 AM) Systh0: but I don't have the time to do all the tests right now
(11:19:16 AM) sjamaan: That's wrong, and your test should flag it
(11:19:28 AM) Systh0: so I focus on the big integration tests
(11:19:39 AM) Systh0: but eventually there will be more accurate tests
(11:20:08 AM) Systh0: right now I have planned test for application registration
(11:20:18 AM) Systh0: but I'll leave a todo ;)
(11:21:14 AM) Systh0: but anyway I don't understand why your changes haven't been comitted yet
(11:21:33 AM) Systh0: wasn't that planned for last week or the week before ?
(11:21:52 AM) sjamaan: I don't know. I suppose Svennie has been busy with other stuff or something
(11:26:13 AM) ScaraMcDuck: We've all been very busy I'm afraid
(11:26:49 AM) ScaraMcDuck: not to mention that I had to take up all leftover vacation-days :-(
(11:46:06 AM) NathalieB1: Hi Hans, about the mail from Koen: I don't think it is the idea to do feature requests to be implemented right a way. For now it is about making changes to the existing applications based on usability tests and stuff.
(11:46:21 AM) NathalieB1: there is currently no procedure for that
(11:47:01 AM) NathalieB1: for instance: we have been making some changes on requests from Cynthia and Yana etc. and implemented them on our platform.
(11:48:07 AM) NathalieB1: we could implement them in the chamilo code aswell, but there has to be some kind of a system because if everybody starts changing things it will become chaotic. I change something, somebody else changes it back, someone else changes it again --> not good!
(11:48:35 AM) ScaraMcDuck: it's true that we could use some procedures for those things, but that doesn't change the fact that most change requests right now are nothing but requests with no one (or almost no one) available to actually fill them
(11:48:42 AM) NathalieB1: so for now we implement them locally what has some people complaining everywhere that we are "forking"
(11:49:42 AM) NathalieB1: for us the situation is different because we can comply to cynthia's requests (only the reasonalbe ones). the question is only: where
(11:50:18 AM) ScaraMcDuck: I guess it all depends on the location AND who is willing to be responsible for which package
(11:50:52 AM) ScaraMcDuck: and even then it all comes down to priorities :)
(11:54:25 AM) NathalieB1: yes ok, but this is a very practical situation we are in. Our pedagoges WANT/NEED/WHATEVER certain changes to be made in the weblcms so we WILL be making them. question is only: where. I see Laurent is also making changes to the weblcms and since HoGent is going live they will also be making changes. everything without discussing anything for the moment. this will lead to problems
(11:56:06 AM) ScaraMcDuck: I guess the first step would be that the pedagoges of different institutions "get along"
(11:57:01 AM) NathalieB1: I think Cynthia and Liesbeth get along fine :-)
(11:57:25 AM) NathalieB1: I don't know if you have pedagoges at EHB who are involved?
(11:57:48 AM) NathalieB1: from HoGent we have never seen anybody. I think Cynthia has contacted them.
(11:58:05 AM) NathalieB1: Geneva I don't know only saw the 2 developers
(11:58:41 AM) ScaraMcDuck: if and when input is needed I'm sure someone on our side will provide it ... I have a strict: "no change if it can screw things up for anyone else" policy internally
(11:59:27 AM) ScaraMcDuck: but the weblcms is low priority for us right now and even when we launch it, it's less problematic in terms of changes being demanded
(11:59:36 AM) NathalieB1: can i quote you on that because if we put that up on the wall here, I'm sure everybody will laugh everytime they pass it
(12:00:09 PM) ScaraMcDuck: feel free
(12:00:47 PM) ScaraMcDuck: the root of the problem is that we as developers are being forced to solve problems which we didn't create to begin with
(12:02:21 PM) ScaraMcDuck: and practically speaking the weblcms is of course the most obvious place where such things are being noticed ... because that's the thing everyone needs / wants / ...
(12:04:56 PM) NathalieB1: yes offcourse, the problems will always exist primarily in applications like that. But it doesn't change the fact that it is or soon will be creating problems.
(12:06:19 PM) ScaraMcDuck: there are other obstacles as well, but I'm not all that in comfortable in discussing those in here :)
(12:06:20 PM) NathalieB1: So now I have 2 options: 1) I just make the changes we want in the chamilo repository 2) I just make the changes we want in our VUB repositories.
(12:08:04 PM) NathalieB1: We will hopefully have time to discuss this during the codesprint. we should use the time to really discuss things instead of just sitting fixing bugs next to each other (you can do that any time).
(12:08:35 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I agree 100%, that's why the agenda is so extensive and versatile
(12:08:57 PM) ScaraMcDuck: a lot of things which we need to come to some kind of agreement on
(12:10:02 PM) NathalieB1: we can come 2 full days and on thursday we can come only in the morning (have another meeting in Gent at 2pm) so maybe we can also make an ordered list (in terms of importance) of the things we really have to discuss.
(12:10:24 PM) NathalieB1: priorities will be different for everybody I guess. for us anonymous user is priority nr1
(12:10:43 PM) ScaraMcDuck: it's in the top half for us as well
(12:11:26 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if you have any other topics you want to discuss and which are *not* on the list, please send them over and I can add them
(12:12:04 PM) ScaraMcDuck: hope to write down some more info and basic ideas for each topic before the code sprint as well, so people can already have a look at it beforehand
(12:12:42 PM) NathalieB1: OK, good idea! I will try to do that if I find the time (I havent written one line of code in the last 3 weeks I think)
(12:13:14 PM) ScaraMcDuck: sadly enough, I know the feeling :)
(12:14:05 PM) NathalieB1: for the metadate/contextlinker integration it is a matter of finding the time and figuring out how to do it in the current repository-labyrinth. there are also a lot of usability issues there. everything work I think, but UI should be tweaked a lot
(12:14:31 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I probably have some good news for you on that ;-)
(12:15:13 PM) NathalieB1: you are going to do it ? :-D
(12:15:37 PM) ScaraMcDuck: in short: probably (and there's obviously more to it then that)
(12:15:54 PM) NathalieB1: has your project been accepted?
(12:16:05 PM) ScaraMcDuck: yup, it has been
(12:17:18 PM) NathalieB1: good news! Can you keep Jens posted on that, because he and Bruno would also much more like to use OpenSource software for that, instead of the commercial stuff we are piloting with now
(12:18:04 PM) NathalieB1: going for a sandwich ... hear you later!
(12:18:09 PM) ScaraMcDuck: laterz :)
(12:44:16 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: strange idea that you never seen anybody (pedagoges) from HoGent ..
(12:46:22 PM) Kariboe: Jean-Marie has that role in our institution/chamilo project
(12:47:27 PM) Kariboe: but I follow you when you say more communication is needed for adjustments required in the several organizations ..
(12:48:00 PM) Kariboe: this is stuff for a dev meeting of course .. where all parties bring there feedback from their own users and we try to find a compromis about a solution
(12:48:33 PM) Kariboe: at the moment laurent1 and sven/pj are indeed implementing changes in several applications ..
(12:48:54 PM) Kariboe: this is for me ok as long as there is enough communication
(12:52:49 PM) Kariboe: about the 'forking' .. I warned you several weeks ago that it could become a possible thread that VUB would fork if you did not communicate about the requests for changes
(12:53:10 PM) Kariboe: up till now i haven't seen any of these request appear on this channel of support website ..
(01:31:14 PM) laurent1: I think it would be good if people could add their wishes to redmine
(01:31:38 PM) laurent1: not that they will be all implemented but at least this gives some visibility on what is going on
(01:31:44 PM) laurent1: for weblcms
(01:31:58 PM) laurent1: I see right now many changes/modifications/etc
(01:32:25 PM) laurent1: I am wondering if it would be better to take a templated approach
(01:32:32 PM) laurent1: for example
(01:32:36 PM) Svennie: hi laurent :)
(01:32:42 PM) laurent1: cheers Sven
(01:32:46 PM) Svennie: I think its also very good
(01:32:46 PM) laurent1: for example
(01:33:07 PM) laurent1: create php hmtl template called type A
(01:33:19 PM) laurent1: another called type B
(01:33:31 PM) laurent1: let's development do this part of the work
(01:33:38 PM) laurent1: and add new templates if required
(01:33:50 PM) laurent1: then just select the template you want when you create a course
(01:33:54 PM) laurent1: because right now
(01:34:15 PM) laurent1: I tend to have too many changes to incorporate all of that in the UI
(01:34:20 PM) laurent1: just a thought so
(01:39:06 PM) Svennie: Systho is the installer broken now?
(01:39:08 PM) Svennie: on the dev?
(01:41:32 PM) Systh0: it depends what you mean by broken ;)
(01:42:17 PM) Systh0: it works as good as 1 month ago but sjamaan has found some bugs in it and I have found others
(01:43:04 PM) Systh0: sjamaan had fixed them in his work but since hi work hasn't been comitted yet, it's hard to tell which ones are remaining
(01:47:43 PM) Svennie: my students claim the installer doesn't run anymore
(01:47:46 PM) Svennie: with latest dev code
(01:48:48 PM) Systh0: ???
(01:49:05 PM) Systh0: I have just added stuff, I have modified or removed anything
(01:49:09 PM) Systh0: let me re-check
(01:51:46 PM) Svennie: np
(01:51:54 PM) Svennie: could be another issue
(01:52:00 PM) Svennie: not related to your changes
(01:52:19 PM) Systh0: I haven't even pushed my changes to install actually :p
(01:52:40 PM) Systh0: may I know what the breakage is ?
(01:52:46 PM) NathalieB1: i was gone for a moment but afaik jean-marie was technical and not pedagogical. sorry if that is not true, that was not clear then. you do have a whole "pegagogical cell" with people who are not involved no?
(01:53:39 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: besides JM there is 1 other person
(01:53:54 PM) Kariboe: with other responsabilities inside our organisation
(01:54:41 PM) Systh0: Svennie : I've just reviewed my changes and it should definitely not have broken anything
(01:54:45 PM) Svennie: ok
(01:54:47 PM) NathalieB1: and about the forking. You find it a problem but there are only 2 possibilities now: change it on the common repository without taken into account needs of others as is happening now (with the risk that someone else will again change "your" functionality) OR change it on our own repository.
(01:54:48 PM) Svennie: thanks systho
(01:54:51 PM) Svennie: i will check with my students :)
(01:55:02 PM) Systh0: but I'm currently working on install app so pleasse tell me before pushing anything
(01:55:09 PM) NathalieB1: and we don't have a problem with the "forking" we are forced to do, you do
(01:55:49 PM) Svennie: NathalieB1: if you would add all these issues to the support website we could discuss them
(01:56:03 PM) Svennie: and then you could push them to the official repositories
(01:56:15 PM) Svennie: and there would at least be a place where it is possible to discuss issues about some implementations etc
(01:56:35 PM) Svennie: i already had such a small discussion with laurent1 about a usability issue
(01:56:43 PM) NathalieB1: there is never anything discussed on the support website
(01:56:57 PM) Svennie: and the solution was that we will create a setting which makes both solutions possible
(01:57:38 PM) NathalieB1: yes you and laurent have discussed it. that is the problem exactly. there are more parties envolved
(01:57:45 PM) Svennie: then you should join
(01:57:53 PM) Svennie: the support website is the best place to discuss such things
(01:58:00 PM) Svennie: but you need to put time in it
(01:58:07 PM) Kariboe: best place is dev meetings :-)
(01:58:15 PM) NathalieB1: yes I will spend my whole day reading everything that was posted on the support website and on the chat, good idea
(01:58:38 PM) Svennie: we need to do the same if we want to stay in touch with the latest changes / plans
(01:58:58 PM) NathalieB1: yes best place is dev meetings. or not... because last time we spent half a day discussing the repositories and the actual implementation is quite something else
(01:59:19 PM) Svennie: but at least there are some people who use a channel like this, a support website, a dev email or whatever to announce their specific plans
(02:01:04 PM) Svennie: If a technical solution can not be met due to practical limits then the people involved are forced to use other ways, we discussed it with the people who were actively trying to change the repositories and announced the changes to the people who had no time available for joining with setting up the repositories
(02:01:04 PM) NathalieB1: Ok I will do it the chamilo way and post on the support website when I have made changes. then you can discuss it all you want and I won't take into account anything you say. fine by me
(02:02:13 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: do you have the feeling that your suggestions aren't taken into account right now? because your reaction is pointing that way ..
(02:02:52 PM) Kariboe: idea is to propose changes first, discuss them (find consensus if necessary) and then implement
(02:03:51 PM) NathalieB1: frankly, i have seen nothing of this "idea" in the last year
(02:04:29 PM) NathalieB1: but no point discussing it, you all seem to think everything is great the way it is. it must be just me then
(02:05:07 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: the idea should become routine with every request for change
(02:05:40 PM) ***ScaraMcDuck just spent the last 5 minutes catching up with what was posted in here ... the irony ...
(02:06:14 PM) Kariboe: we are a very small community .. if we aren't able to communicate with 10 people .. with if 20 new people (and wishes/plans) join
(02:06:18 PM) ScaraMcDuck: one small thing I would like to add: it is not easy to stay up to date with all that's being posted on the support website
(02:06:44 PM) Kariboe: ScaraMcDuck: that's true, because it doesn't match our bitbucket structure and development process anymore
(02:06:59 PM) Kariboe: there is no 'next' release anymore
(02:07:07 PM) ScaraMcDuck: that's not why I say it
(02:07:25 PM) Kariboe: explain
(02:07:31 PM) ScaraMcDuck: simply because it's too much and things get forgotten, it's impossible to distinguish important from trivial
(02:07:53 PM) ScaraMcDuck: at any rate: things get missed that way
(02:08:08 PM) ScaraMcDuck: not too mention I regularly get interrupted when I want to catch up
(02:08:18 PM) ScaraMcDuck: which is (usually) not the case with a face to face meeting
(02:09:31 PM) Systh0: I'd like to add something
(02:09:43 PM) Systh0: since the whole idea of the bb structure is to make package
(02:10:02 PM) Systh0: the communication and stay up-t-date shouldn't be global anymore
(02:10:22 PM) Systh0: people involved in a subset of packages should be aware of those packages only
(02:10:36 PM) Systh0: of course there is still the core packages + weblcms
(02:10:53 PM) ScaraMcDuck: weblcms aka the root of all evil
(02:11:00 PM) Systh0: but maybe that whould allow people concerned about those package to not be aware of other packages
(02:11:12 PM) Systh0: At least this is my idea
(02:11:26 PM) Systh0: I try to stay in touch with the core (not even with weblcms)
(02:11:31 PM) Kariboe: we could create subprojects inside the 2.0 root project
(02:11:35 PM) Systh0: and with my own packages
(02:11:42 PM) Kariboe: core
(02:11:47 PM) Kariboe: weblcms
(02:11:51 PM) Kariboe: optional packages
(02:11:52 PM) ScaraMcDuck: valid point systho
(02:12:18 PM) Kariboe: it would clarify all the issues we have right now
(02:12:19 PM) ScaraMcDuck: makes it a lot easier to find issues or discussions on a certain topic
(02:13:23 PM) ScaraMcDuck: it's not perfect ... but then again we are humain and flawed by design ;-)
(02:13:24 PM) Kariboe: but the issue remains .. if you want to be up to date of the entire project .. it requires a lot of reading :-)
(02:13:25 PM) Systh0: and optionally a sub project for any packages / set of packages whose authors ask for it (I'm not sure this is valid english)
(02:13:40 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: indeed ..
(02:13:59 PM) Systh0: Kariboe : yes but maybe it because it is not a good idea to stay in touch with the entire projet
(02:14:15 PM) Kariboe: that was my point that our support workflow is not the same anymore as the dev workflow
(02:14:34 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: its your own choice of course what you want to follow
(02:14:54 PM) Svennie: just for information: the bitbucket has issue tracking per package
(02:14:57 PM) Systh0: What if you see Chamilo core as windows and every package as windows-based application (I mean the ones like wordpad etc)
(02:15:19 PM) Svennie: i'd rather have chamilo to be linux :P
(02:15:20 PM) Systh0: do you really think there are people aware of all the subproject of windows ?
(02:15:39 PM) Svennie: I understand what you mean :)
(02:15:56 PM) ScaraMcDuck: about the staying up to date: I don't follow everything either, but right now because of the structure it's hard to filter out those things right now
(02:16:03 PM) Systh0: Svennie : yes but linux is n't as monolithic as windows , my point would have been harder to demonstrate
(02:16:10 PM) ScaraMcDuck: or to look up something which you get interested in for that matter
(02:16:33 PM) Kariboe: for example .. the external repositories project there is at this moment already
(02:16:43 PM) Svennie: But you must realise Systh0 that when people follow the weblcms, they follow almost 75% of the packages
(02:16:59 PM) Svennie: because many applications in chamilo are actually just publication wrappers around content objects and complex displays
(02:17:09 PM) Kariboe: don't know if this will answer some of the questions/remarks that NathalieB1 has
(02:17:15 PM) Systh0: ScaraMcDuck : afaic the rss/atom feed is quite good
(02:17:41 PM) ScaraMcDuck: @systho: on bitbucket or redmine ?
(02:17:48 PM) Systh0: bb
(02:17:56 PM) ScaraMcDuck: then I agree :)
(02:18:05 PM) Systh0: I don't follow redmine at all (shame on me)
(02:18:10 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I was talking about all the different support issues on redmine :)
(02:18:20 PM) Svennie: Systh0: i receive emails of every new feature
(02:18:32 PM) Svennie: and i skim and scan all my emails to see if something relevant shows up
(02:18:33 PM) ScaraMcDuck: there's lots of interesting thing going on in there but tempus fugit :(
(02:18:42 PM) Kariboe: I receive mails on all projects .. all issues .. :-):-)
(02:18:48 PM) Kariboe: even from the 1.8 project
(02:19:03 PM) Kariboe: there is some interesting stuff coming along over there ;-)
(02:19:06 PM) Systh0: mmmhhh
(02:19:18 PM) Systh0: o I understand why you need a new structure for support
(02:19:39 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I go though all the mails .. but don't always have time to formulate or write down any ideas I have on the subject at that moment
(02:20:32 PM) Systh0: then maybe use redmine for the big stuff (core - weblcms - structural design - huge refactor ) and bb tracker for day-to-day business (bugs, features, etc)
(02:21:30 PM) Systh0: redmine can then become the electronic support for the dev meeting
(02:21:34 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: not a good idea to spread issues over 2 systems
(02:21:38 PM) Systh0: and bb tracker for code srpint
(02:21:55 PM) ScaraMcDuck: and if someone has ANY kind of issue with ANYTHING: please, PLEASE let us know ... electronic communication has a certain inherent lag ... so just phone, mail or IM someone instead of not saying anything
(02:21:55 PM) Kariboe: keep in mind that we have still a 1.8 team too
(02:22:06 PM) ScaraMcDuck: 1.what ?
(02:22:09 PM) ScaraMcDuck: ;-)
(02:22:17 PM) Systh0: Kariboe : i don't agree, from my pov : every packages should manages its issues
(02:22:37 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: right ..
(02:22:43 PM) Svennie: The problem is only there when there are issues over multiple packages
(02:22:45 PM) Kariboe: but we don't have to use 2 systems for it
(02:22:56 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I remember discussing this with "someone" before
(02:22:57 PM) Svennie: and also we should need a very very good moderator who knows the system very good
(02:22:57 PM) Kariboe: we could create as many project in redmine as we have applications
(02:23:13 PM) Svennie: because testers / users tend to post bugs in the wrong category very often
(02:23:22 PM) NathalieB1: I am not talking about well defined issues only related to specific classes/packages/tools/...
(02:23:37 PM) ScaraMcDuck: there's a lot of "grey" area
(02:23:40 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: explain :-)
(02:23:44 PM) NathalieB1: I am talking about general idea's, directions to move in, usability, ...
(02:24:01 PM) Kariboe: for me that is stuff to discuss on dev meetings
(02:24:08 PM) Kariboe: live meetings ..
(02:24:09 PM) NathalieB1: non-technical stuff. there is nowhere to discuss things like this and for people to follow up on this
(02:24:18 PM) Systh0: forum....
(02:24:19 PM) NathalieB1: not all people envolved are developers
(02:24:40 PM) NathalieB1: live meetings ... this way you limit the input to belgian people
(02:24:42 PM) ScaraMcDuck: so we need some kind of pseudo-dev meetings
(02:24:46 PM) Kariboe: there is a forum enabled now inside the 2.0 project
(02:25:00 PM) NathalieB1: the chamilo forum just S*CKS bigtime!
(02:25:12 PM) Svennie: we have multiple communication channels
(02:25:17 PM) NathalieB1: not the one in the platform (afaik) the one on the site
(02:25:17 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: you're free to suggest an alternative
(02:25:18 PM) Svennie: but you need to choose one
(02:25:19 PM) Systh0: I really think there should be a central place for discussing technical and non technical CENTRAL issues, and lots of specifi trackers linked to their respective package
(02:25:48 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: the website is going to be reworked this month
(02:26:10 PM) NathalieB1: yes to attracked more "customers" and "cients"... I don't care one bit about that
(02:26:15 PM) NathalieB1: clients
(02:26:34 PM) Kariboe: If I summarize your remarks: you don't want live meeting because its limited to belgian people, no forum because not usable, no support website because too technical ..
(02:26:53 PM) Kariboe: no irc because no time to follow ..
(02:27:37 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I know what we need: a full time Chamilo 2 office manager ... preferably female, about 26 and manages to tolerate me ... win-win for everyone (particularly me)
(02:27:39 PM) Kariboe: If you can point us towards a better tool .. feel free
(02:27:53 PM) Kariboe: preferably ??
(02:27:57 PM) Kariboe: LOL
(02:27:58 PM) NathalieB1: wel isn't chamilo supposed to be a collaboration tool!?
(02:28:06 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if not I don't really care ;-)
(02:28:27 PM) NathalieB1: and i don't say I don't want a forum. i don't want the drupal-thing that is pretending to be a forum
(02:28:32 PM) Kariboe: It is a collection of tools: forum, wiki ..
(02:28:38 PM) sjamaan: IIRC there's bbforum integration for drupal
(02:28:43 PM) NathalieB1: the chamilo.org website is only a commercial tool (and not a very usefull one)
(02:28:55 PM) Svennie: there is a forum on the support website
(02:28:56 PM) sjamaan: But someone would need to look into setting it up, which probably nobody wants to do/has time for
(02:29:10 PM) Kariboe: we are now paying a company to update the website
(02:29:12 PM) Kariboe: :-)
(02:29:24 PM) sjamaan: oh nice. Tell them to install a better forum then ;)
(02:29:29 PM) Kariboe: we did
(02:29:44 PM) sjamaan: And they didn't? ;)
(02:29:47 PM) NathalieB1: the redmine bugtracker has a specific use: post bugs and feature request. but not workable if you want a bigger community to be involved
(02:29:55 PM) Systh0: didn't we agree on a preivous meeting that it was a good idea to setup a forum on support website ?
(02:29:57 PM) Svennie: why not
(02:30:01 PM) Svennie: very easy to link to the issues
(02:30:05 PM) Svennie: because it's all in the same software
(02:30:16 PM) sjamaan: that's a great feature
(02:30:26 PM) NathalieB1: and irc is just plain stupid to discuss important things since not everybody will be online at that exact moment and everything discussed is just lost.
(02:30:37 PM) Systh0: tickets are very weak compared to topics for discussing big stuff
(02:30:47 PM) sjamaan: you could install channel logging, but it sucks to go through chat logs
(02:30:47 PM) NathalieB1: i know open the irc each morning to have a log to go through when I have time. but it's just silly like this
(02:30:52 PM) Svennie: we have discussed this on last dev meeting and EVERYONE agreed with us that we would do a friday dev meeting
(02:30:54 PM) NathalieB1: *now
(02:30:55 PM) Systh0: and nontechnical people are mor used to forums
(02:31:04 PM) sjamaan: Svennie: I think the friday dev meeting is good
(02:31:07 PM) Svennie: all the important issues from the entire week that came up on irc are discussed every friday
(02:31:09 PM) Kariboe: euh: http://support.chamilo.org/projects/chamilo-20/boards
(02:31:20 PM) sjamaan: IMO the dev mailinglist is underused
(02:31:37 PM) Kariboe: ow .. we have a mailing lists too ;-)
(02:31:39 PM) sjamaan: That's the right place to have technical discussions; it's archived and everyone can catch up in their own time
(02:31:39 PM) NathalieB1: yeah and see how well things get answered there, Kariboe
(02:32:08 PM) sjamaan: If you have a decent mailclient, you also get threading which means you can follow what you find interesting and ignore other things, which is hard to do on IRC
(02:32:32 PM) Kariboe: I was too busy reading all the support issues :-)
(02:32:45 PM) ScaraMcDuck: what I really, REALLY need is decent voice recognition ... it takes a lot of time tro write out a well structured decent mail about an issue
(02:33:39 PM) Kariboe: that office manager you requested ;-)
(02:34:13 PM) Svennie: if we would need to put everything on the mailing list then me and hans would be sending mails all day long and we wouldn't write a single line of code anymore
(02:34:22 PM) Svennie: and as you have said before
(02:34:36 PM) Svennie: many emails sent by us do not receive any answer
(02:35:11 PM) Svennie: we'd rather use channels where we at least get some feedback, otherwise it seems more like a press conference where me and hans are the press officers
(02:35:22 PM) ScaraMcDuck: small question: does everyone actually get those mails on the dev-list
(02:35:23 PM) sjamaan: Svennie: Not doing so might work now but if the community grows you'd be shutting out a lot of people from the discussion
(02:35:36 PM) ScaraMcDuck: press officers are better payed then I am ... quite sure of that ...
(02:35:44 PM) NathalieB1: *might work now* -> does not work now
(02:36:03 PM) Svennie: sjamaan: if there would be more interacction on the dev list i would be happy to sent all my comments there
(02:36:09 PM) Systh0: emails are good for quick question-answer or announcements but not for discussion
(02:36:10 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: What mails specifically? I get mail from dev...
(02:36:17 PM) Svennie: but it seems that people are quite afraid to give there opinion when going through the mailing list
(02:36:29 PM) sjamaan: Svennie: afraid or disinterested, that depends
(02:36:35 PM) ScaraMcDuck: nothing specifically, but I've gotten reports in the past that people did not get certain things
(02:36:42 PM) sjamaan: Some threads get replies, others don't
(02:36:48 PM) Svennie: if it would be disintrested then we wouldn't get any reply's on the support / irc neither ;)
(02:36:55 PM) Systh0: I personnaly categorized by emails betwwen those which I can't answer in less than 5 minutes (and I answer to these) and the other ones which are lots in the vacuum of my hard drive
(02:36:58 PM) NathalieB1: I remeber the time I posted questions on the dev list and I got messages via facebook telling me to pick up the phone... so I stopped using the devlist
(02:37:02 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: That sounds like maybe a misconfiguration of the list software
(02:37:14 PM) sjamaan: NathalieB1: Jeez, how convoluted ;)
(02:37:28 PM) ScaraMcDuck: @systho: with over 200 mails that all becomes relative :p
(02:37:34 PM) ScaraMcDuck: *200 a day
(02:37:48 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: If that happens, you need to split up the lists
(02:37:53 PM) Kariboe: so .. can we summarize this discussion :-)
(02:38:06 PM) NathalieB1: sjamaan: had to look up covoluted ;-)
(02:38:08 PM) sjamaan: Look at large, successful projects; they have several lists
(02:38:11 PM) Systh0: +1 sjamaan
(02:38:13 PM) Kariboe: If would like to make some adjustments if needed
(02:39:01 PM) sjamaan: You could have a core list, a generic questions list, and specific lists for larger app subprojects
(02:39:20 PM) Systh0: oh please no
(02:39:30 PM) Svennie: at this point there are to few active users
(02:39:30 PM) Kariboe: haha .. first suggestion :-)
(02:39:30 PM) Systh0: don't use email for discussion , please please please
(02:39:38 PM) Svennie: to seperate it into multiple lists
(02:39:40 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: Why the hell not?
(02:39:51 PM) Systh0: forums are much better tools for discussing
(02:39:56 PM) sjamaan: Svennie: I was responding to ScaraMcDuck's worry that you'd get too many posts per day
(02:40:11 PM) Svennie: i don't think he means that with his 200 emails
(02:40:16 PM) Systh0: anyway if someone receives 200 mails a day , he will still receives them if he follow multiples lists....
(02:40:18 PM) Svennie: i think there are a lot of automated scripts there also :)
(02:40:26 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: I strongly disagree. Threaded mailclients are much more efficient in filtering, searching and sorting threads
(02:40:33 PM) NathalieB1: I would prefer a good forum or even a workspace like in chamilo to too many devlists
(02:40:34 PM) sjamaan: forum software generally sucks
(02:40:49 PM) sjamaan: They only offer limited searching or filtering capabilities
(02:40:57 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I have an idea: I could spend some time posting things on the forum, on mailing lists, on the support website ... and hey ... while I'm at it, why not Facebook as well ? (just being sarcastic now)
(02:41:08 PM) sjamaan: Not helpful, ScaraMcDuck
(02:41:12 PM) NathalieB1: but a devlist can be very usefull if it is used. we just need to pick 1 main channel
(02:41:12 PM) Kariboe: ScaraMcDuck: don't forget Twitter
(02:41:29 PM) sjamaan: NathalieB1: Agreed. And it should be a channel open to anyone
(02:41:37 PM) ScaraMcDuck: @sjamaan: that has been my general feeling for quite a while about quite a lot of things
(02:41:41 PM) Kariboe: for me: the main community channel is the redmine
(02:41:46 PM) Systh0: can we do the following : setup a forum and register the rss of the most important sub forum to the mailing list ?
(02:41:46 PM) sjamaan: So not face to face or timezone-bound (and I guess that rules out IRC too)
(02:41:53 PM) NathalieB1: and also user-friendly to not so technical people if possible
(02:43:00 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: the redmine is not that 'technical' that non-developers can't post issues on it . .. or is it?
(02:43:05 PM) NathalieB1: IRC can be good for quick discussions. but if the topic is importent, the log should be posted somewhere. or a summary of what was discussed and what the different points of view were and the actual descicion
(02:43:23 PM) NathalieB1: i think it is
(02:43:26 PM) Kariboe: each way of communication has it own tool ..
(02:43:27 PM) Systh0: (beginning by this discussion )
(02:43:49 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: strange, because our HoGent staff is using right now to post chamilo 2.0 issues
(02:44:17 PM) Kariboe: we did explain it to them of course :-)
(02:44:27 PM) Svennie: I think it's even possible to add issues by emailing
(02:44:31 PM) Svennie: to a certain emailaddress
(02:45:29 PM) Kariboe: Svennie: correct
(02:45:49 PM) NathalieB1: if the issues are bugs or well defined feature request that's possible (and if they are using it right because "I had a bug when I was doing a session on the portfolio" does not sound as a particularly good use of the tool)
(02:46:00 PM) Kariboe: so .. second try: summary of request for changes in our project management ..
(02:47:22 PM) Kariboe: nobody?
(02:47:30 PM) Systh0: Ok for the summary => chapter one "current problems"
(02:47:55 PM) Systh0: As a nontechnical person, I don't know where to discuss nontechnical large issues
(02:48:35 PM) Systh0: As a technical person, I don't know a simple way to stay in touch with all the dev changes and features related to my personal work
(02:49:11 PM) NathalieB1: even as a technical person, I don't have any idea on what big changes are planned for the future. I learn of them when they have been implemented (and cause me problems) or if I happen to be at the right place at the right time by chance
(02:50:26 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: so we need solutions for both of the problems ..
(02:50:36 PM) Kariboe: non-technical issues: use the forum on chamilo.org
(02:51:10 PM) Kariboe: technical issues and staying up to date: support website (issue tracking per application, forums)
(02:51:41 PM) Systh0: discussion ?
(02:52:14 PM) Svennie: i propose that if we have important discussions on the irc channel
(02:52:17 PM) Svennie: that we create a support issue from it
(02:52:20 PM) Svennie: and add the discussion
(02:52:23 PM) Kariboe: :-)
(02:52:38 PM) NathalieB1: where do you have room for technical and non-technical people involved to discuss ideas
(02:53:06 PM) Systh0: I would have chosen technical/nontechnical forum for discussion, it helps to check active discussions
(02:53:14 PM) Svennie: as in our institution, and it seems to be running very good, we allow these users to follow the support website
(02:53:33 PM) Svennie: problem is that the line between technical and non technical are sometimes so close
(02:53:43 PM) Svennie: and often cross eachoters paths
(02:53:52 PM) Kariboe: btw .. Chamilo is a work in progress .. so is it community and used tools
(02:53:52 PM) Svennie: not everything that is functional possible / wanted is also technical possible
(02:54:54 PM) NathalieB1: so your answer for the non-technical people, who are actively asking for a way to formalize communication and feature requests, is to post it on the forum of chamilo.org?
(02:55:06 PM) Svennie: on the support website
(02:55:12 PM) Svennie: as i have always told koen and others
(02:55:27 PM) NathalieB1: this is clearly not working out
(02:55:35 PM) Svennie: because they don't do this
(02:55:58 PM) Kariboe: we can also start a 'Community' project in redmine .. where non-technical user can post and discuss all their wishes and requests ..
(02:56:08 PM) Svennie: it's not because not every issue that they post isn't fixed on short notice that the channel of communication is wrong
(02:56:15 PM) Svennie: you should know that as a developer
(02:56:34 PM) NathalieB1: we are not talking about issues that need to be fixed asap we are talking about something completely different
(02:57:28 PM) ScaraMcDuck: conceptual ideas and general vision right ?
(02:58:00 PM) NathalieB1: yes and usability, workflow etc... (for non-technical people)
(02:58:16 PM) sjamaan: Every successful free software project uses mailinglists for this kind of thing. Why is everyone here insisting on reinventing the wheel? Smells like NIH syndrome, TBH
(02:58:25 PM) ScaraMcDuck: what do those people themselves actually want ?
(02:58:36 PM) NathalieB1: to talk to you about it ;-)
(02:58:55 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: that way you limit it again to small Belgium
(02:58:57 PM) sjamaan: NathalieB1: Are you purely talking about nontechnical people?
(02:59:09 PM) NathalieB1: I don't know: specific guidelines, procedures, clarity...
(02:59:16 PM) Kariboe: I know about some Spanish people that want to talk to Hans about Chamilo 2.0 :-)
(02:59:31 PM) NathalieB1: sjamaan: there are two problems: communication with non-developers and developers
(02:59:53 PM) sjamaan: NathalieB1: OK, then I didn't completely misunderstand. Good :)
(03:00:15 PM) sjamaan: I was talking about developer communication when I mentioned mailinglists
(03:01:35 PM) ***ScaraMcDuck just realizes Noa sent him some Spanish remarks about 2.0 ... and had completely forgotten about that
(03:01:43 PM) Kariboe: ScaraMcDuck: ;-)
(03:02:09 PM) Kariboe: Those remarks should be on the mailing list of course ..
(03:02:15 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I hardly dare say it ... but it's somewhere in the list of mails I still have to go through :(
(03:02:16 PM) NathalieB1: don't you see the problem: why does Noa sent remarks to one specific person?
(03:02:19 PM) Systh0: I've had a rapid look at the forum on redmine and I think it lacks some serious features like 'new messages since last visit'
(03:02:31 PM) NathalieB1: this project cannot work if we keep using 1on1 communication
(03:02:59 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: true, so I ask for suggestions to improve it ..
(03:03:21 PM) ScaraMcDuck: 1onMany isn't going to work either though :)
(03:03:35 PM) NathalieB1: I have already suggested to set up chamilo as a collaboration platform, but nobody is interested
(03:03:51 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: ok, what parts of Chamilo do you want to use
(03:03:58 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I actually am ... but could you elaborate on that ?
(03:04:18 PM) NathalieB1: I have already suggested to choose 1 main channel for things like that, but you seem to think that the combination redmine bugtracker/drupal forum is good enough (when practice suggests it isn't)
(03:05:23 PM) NathalieB1: the parts that are already being used by perspectief to "collaborate" with their students
(03:05:58 PM) NathalieB1: the part a lot of us are going to use in our universities in a few months to have our students and teachers collaborate
(03:06:01 PM) Systh0: does everybody agrees that redmine is a good bugtracker and the drupal forum is a bad forum ?
(03:06:28 PM) ScaraMcDuck: drupal forum is definitely evil
(03:07:05 PM) NathalieB1: +1 i h*a*t*e that forum
(03:07:44 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: the parts that are already being used by perspectief to "collaborate" with their students ---> that is very vague for me
(03:07:47 PM) Kariboe: what PARTS
(03:07:55 PM) Systh0: sorry NathalieB1 , I didn't want to interrupt you. But just wanted to open the discussion on what could be doable if we just changed that forum ....
(03:08:22 PM) NathalieB1: no problem systh0
(03:08:42 PM) NathalieB1: Kariboe what parts? weblcms?
(03:09:09 PM) Kariboe: so we should set up a chamilo installation .. create a course 'Community' and use its 'tools'
(03:09:28 PM) Kariboe: and that is easier then the redmine/mailing list combination?
(03:09:53 PM) NathalieB1: create different workspaces for the different packages
(03:10:10 PM) NathalieB1: you can subscribe to the workspaces of the workspaces you are interested in
(03:10:28 PM) NathalieB1: you get an icon on your front page when something is added to that workspace
(03:10:42 PM) NathalieB1: yes i def. think that is easier than using redmine
(03:10:45 PM) Kariboe: something is added ..
(03:10:54 PM) Kariboe: something like a document?
(03:11:02 PM) Kariboe: a forum topic?
(03:11:05 PM) NathalieB1: and the mailinglist is not used now anyway. it would already be an improvement if it was
(03:11:22 PM) NathalieB1: yes
(03:11:24 PM) Svennie: NathalieB1: can you guarantee for the stability of the weblcms courses so that no information of these issues would be lost?
(03:11:53 PM) NathalieB1: euh backups
(03:12:05 PM) Kariboe: Svennie: you should believe in your own software of course ;-)
(03:12:33 PM) Kariboe: and what about the issue tracker?
(03:12:35 PM) ScaraMcDuck: "I believe"
(03:12:36 PM) NathalieB1: you are willing to sell the platform to customers but it is too buggy to use for our own communication... we should be having this discussion on the chamilo.org forum
(03:12:42 PM) sjamaan: eat your own dogfood ;)
(03:12:53 PM) Kariboe: stick to redmine for that?
(03:13:00 PM) Systh0: I personally disagree to that idea... redmine is a great ticketing system => we can settle milestones, see the activity, assign people and all that will be lost with weblcms. What we miss is a dicussion system not a replacement for the ticketing system.
(03:13:02 PM) NathalieB1: there is no problem with redmine.
(03:13:09 PM) ***ScaraMcDuck http://tribalinsight.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/i-want-to-believe.jpg ...
(03:14:13 PM) NathalieB1: we could make a portfolio where we post all official documentation and put the rssfeed from redmine at the top
(03:14:39 PM) NathalieB1: we could use the courses/workspaces to discuss things, post documents, comment on documents, ...
(03:14:41 PM) Systh0: this is becoming interesting
(03:14:47 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: I thought the handbook application was developed for creating documentation
(03:15:14 PM) NathalieB1: yes but things like hans's pdf's have to be put somewhere too
(03:15:33 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: isn't the claroline team going to develop a 'workspace' application ??
(03:15:36 PM) NathalieB1: handbook is mainly for user documentation, not developer documentation (although you could use it for that too)
(03:15:44 PM) Systh0: Kariboe
(03:15:46 PM) Systh0: yes
(03:15:48 PM) Kariboe: documentation = documentation
(03:15:59 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: Perfect!
(03:15:59 PM) Systh0: but we have not set a single deadline for now
(03:16:02 PM) Kariboe: problem solved
(03:16:08 PM) Systh0: not at all
(03:16:12 PM) Kariboe: yesterday
(03:16:17 PM) NathalieB1: handbook application was developed for user-guides and help imo
(03:16:23 PM) Systh0: as long as there i sno deadline consider this project failed ;)
(03:17:18 PM) NathalieB1: why not use the weblcms as is? we can still move to the claroline workspaces later
(03:17:33 PM) NathalieB1: or we can just install a stable lcms like dokeos
(03:17:42 PM) Systh0: ^^
(03:17:59 PM) NathalieB1: or claroline ofcours ;-) sorry
(03:19:09 PM) Systh0: personally I would just begin by replacing the drupal foru with something else, open a documentation forum, a technical discussion forum and a general forum and see how it goes
(03:19:42 PM) Systh0: but I fully agree with the "eat your own dogfood" idea
(03:19:54 PM) NathalieB1: next to providing a central collaboration platform. it would be a good thing to use our own product as developers, to see the flaws and have the experiences our users have
(03:20:04 PM) Systh0: that means a lot if we don't use our own system
(03:20:11 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: as long as we don't have anonymous user access .. all our ideas will be hidden behind the login box :-)
(03:20:29 PM) ScaraMcDuck: no pressure eh Kariboe ... :p
(03:20:38 PM) NathalieB1: now all our ideas are hidden in someone's mailbox
(03:21:07 PM) Systh0: one more reason to begin with 'just' a forum
(03:21:10 PM) Kariboe: you mean: http://lists.chamilo.org/mailman/listinfo
(03:21:26 PM) Kariboe: or this: http://lists.chamilo.org/pipermail/dev/
(03:21:42 PM) NathalieB1: and you could use self-registration, no? now you have to have an account too to post on the forum
(03:21:50 PM) Systh0: yep but mails doesn't allow to edit the first post to keep things updated...
(03:22:10 PM) NathalieB1: kariboe: yes I see many many ideas discussed on those lists
(03:22:37 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: I know, but we don't have a lot of developers using the dev list :-)
(03:23:02 PM) NathalieB1: so it is not working
(03:23:12 PM) Systh0: Concerning themailing list : if I were new to chamilo i would much prefer browsing a forum than a mailing list published on internet
(03:24:06 PM) Systh0: not even to mention the easy FAQ and "read before posting" "annoucement" "post-it" and things like that
(03:24:07 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: As a dev or as a regular user?
(03:24:17 PM) Systh0: both
(03:24:26 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: strange, because you used a dutch oriented google groups mailings not so very long ago .. even Koen was on that mailing list .. but using the official one was too difficult I guess
(03:24:38 PM) sjamaan: As a dev, one of the first things I do when I want to dive in is register for a mailinglist
(03:24:45 PM) sjamaan: I don't have time to mess with fiddly forum software
(03:24:55 PM) Systh0: as a dev I would like to see what is currently discussed or why something has been decided, as a regular user I'd like to know how to do this or that or if someone has encountered the same problem I have
(03:24:59 PM) sjamaan: Especially if you're participating in 10 projects, you'd have to use 10 different stupid forums
(03:25:01 PM) NathalieB1: I was told to use that mailinglist
(03:25:06 PM) sjamaan: I have everything in mutt now
(03:25:20 PM) sjamaan: And that works fine; in the mornings I can quickly rip through the discussions on several lists
(03:26:02 PM) Systh0: What about a forum-mailing list linked system then ? does that exist ?
(03:26:13 PM) sjamaan: That doesn't work
(03:26:19 PM) Kariboe: so .. each developer/non-technical user has its own preferred way of communcation channel ..
(03:26:28 PM) sjamaan: Especially when you start doing things like you mentioned; editing posts after the fact
(03:26:41 PM) Kariboe: the moment you will set up a chamilo installation with courses .. people will complain
(03:26:49 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: How many projects are you following? Only chamilo?
(03:27:14 PM) Svennie: phpbb allows you to have notifications sent
(03:27:17 PM) Svennie: of each forum / topic
(03:27:20 PM) Systh0: chamilo, claroline, phpunit + a quite big serie of ruby based projects
(03:27:23 PM) Kariboe: sjamaan: I believe on other tiny project too .. Claroline is it named
(03:27:24 PM) Svennie: so you can couple a forum to emails
(03:27:25 PM) ***sjamaan is subscribed to about 25 mailinglists, of about 10 different projects
(03:27:43 PM) sjamaan: I wouldn't want to go 10 different websites and wade through slow unusable forum software
(03:27:53 PM) ScaraMcDuck: whether it's mailing lists or forums .. it's never fast to go through ...
(03:28:08 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: Not if you read *everything*
(03:28:11 PM) Systh0: sjamaan : I have rss on all those forums ;)
(03:28:26 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: You can't reply from rss :)
(03:28:26 PM) Systh0: I go to them when i see sth interesting in my rss
(03:28:30 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if you don't read things, what's the point in receiving them ...
(03:28:41 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: Skim the thread subjects and read the ones you want to read
(03:29:00 PM) ScaraMcDuck: some mailing lists are very active
(03:29:15 PM) Svennie: and why are mail notifications / rss of forum software so hard then sjamaan?
(03:29:23 PM) ScaraMcDuck: and I guess the same goes for forums: read only the topics you're interested in
(03:29:26 PM) sjamaan: Svennie: |15:24| ( sjamaan) Especially when you start doing things like you mentioned; editing posts after the fact
(03:29:26 PM) Systh0: yes but will you know things that have been posted in the past ...
(03:29:27 PM) Svennie: i mean, you keep the benefits of the forum but still have the mail software to follow
(03:29:33 PM) ScaraMcDuck: cursed are those with a lot of interests :p
(03:30:09 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: Forums have threads too generally, but they're inside a sucky gooey application called the browser, and each forum has its own interface and website
(03:30:39 PM) sjamaan: I have everything in one mailclient which I can access everywhere. hell, I can run grep on the mailbox files if I have to find something quickly
(03:31:02 PM) Systh0: I fully agree that email are great for present things : annoucement or very small discussion, tiny question-answer but for past things (faq, how-to) or future things (discussion about big changes) they suck (IMHO)
(03:31:04 PM) sjamaan: In short: I can use my own toolchain. With websites I have to use whatever someone decided to provide me
(03:31:07 PM) sjamaan: with
(03:31:18 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: Agreed
(03:31:20 PM) ScaraMcDuck: what about that nabble thingy
(03:31:32 PM) sjamaan: For big changes you could work with a wiki
(03:31:47 PM) sjamaan: That's also instantly versioned
(03:31:48 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I know things like Opencast have a mailing list but at the same time it's available as a forum as well
(03:32:27 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I'm subscribed to their mailing list for continuous updates, but use the forum for "research"
(03:32:53 PM) Kariboe: by the way .. not all of our 'problems' can be solved with switching tools
(03:33:40 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: People sending mail to just one or two other devs won't get solved by switching tools. They'll continue to do that. It's also about educating them
(03:33:47 PM) ScaraMcDuck: http://n4.nabble.com/archive-your-mailing-list.html <== would this be the best of both worlds ?
(03:34:27 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: Everytime you get a personal mail from someone about the project that should be more widely seen/discussed, just tell them to post it to the list. That would probably help
(03:34:47 PM) Kariboe: sjamaan: i suggest that to all people that contact me about the project
(03:34:54 PM) Kariboe: but they actually have to do it too
(03:34:57 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: Good. Does it work?
(03:35:05 PM) Svennie: and seriously it's not that we get THAT much requests in private mail...
(03:35:24 PM) Kariboe: yes it works ..
(03:35:24 PM) Svennie: most things that have been discussed / implemented where either discussed on the mailing list / the support website / here on irc
(03:36:50 PM) ScaraMcDuck: @sjamaan: what does that have to do with the entire forum vs. mailing list thing and the nabble solution?
(03:37:45 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: It was mentioned that you got mails personally, and Kariboe mentioned switching tools won't solve our problems, so I thought he was referring to that problem, among other things
(03:38:45 PM) ScaraMcDuck: Uhm .. If I get one personal mail each week about Chamilo 2 in general each week, that would be a lot
(03:39:08 PM) ScaraMcDuck: most mails are generalized things :)
(03:39:20 PM) sjamaan: ah, then it's not as bad as I thought it was
(03:39:52 PM) Svennie: no ofcourse not :)
(03:40:04 PM) ScaraMcDuck: nope ... I get lots of mails, that much is true ... but things like notifications from the support website count as well
(03:40:04 PM) NathalieB1: because there is no clear place for it a lot of things are not discussed
(03:40:22 PM) sjamaan: NathalieB1 also said people were phoning/facebooking/whatever to get a response to something on a mailinglist. That's also bad practice which is not in the spirit of openness
(03:41:20 PM) ScaraMcDuck: it's not something I'm personally aware of ... so I'm not going to comment on that :)
(03:42:12 PM) NathalieB1: I am going to give an example: the switch to PHP 5.3 and all the refactoring afterwards. where and with who was it discussed
(03:42:30 PM) ScaraMcDuck: PHP 5.3 was posted to the mailing list ...
(03:42:32 PM) NathalieB1: where can we find the records of that. i cna't find it in the mailinglist, I can't find it in the bugtracker
(03:43:03 PM) NathalieB1: it was announced on the mailinglist after it was done
(03:43:11 PM) NathalieB1: that's something completely different
(03:43:13 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: Are you referring to the post with subject "PHP Version Statistics", of 25 sept?
(03:43:41 PM) ScaraMcDuck: yup ... that was the initial call for information
(03:44:03 PM) sjamaan: I don't see a followup post on the ML about a final decision
(03:44:11 PM) sjamaan: Just people posting what they were using/doing
(03:44:27 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: the past is maybe not the perfect reference of the way we should work together .. it is a learning process
(03:44:43 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I didn't see any remarks from any developers either ...
(03:44:56 PM) Svennie: I can confirm that php 5.3 was posted onto the mailinglist before the switch
(03:45:00 PM) Svennie: but again with no answers / remakrs
(03:45:38 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: There was a reply from yannick, yourself and ivan
(03:46:04 PM) ScaraMcDuck: yes ... all positive as well
(03:46:09 PM) sjamaan: Also, it was more like a general question about information
(03:46:15 PM) NathalieB1: there you said Making PHP 5.3 a minimum requirement for Chamilo 2.0 seems a bit early' and in the next thread about the subject, on oct 5. you are announcing that you made the changes and would be pushing them after the release
(03:46:22 PM) sjamaan: It wasn't a spot-on question "do you think we should do this"?
(03:46:33 PM) sjamaan: It was more like "where can I find info about 5.3?"
(03:46:37 PM) Kariboe: we should stop looking at the past .. how do want to organise it today :-) :-)
(03:46:59 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: Those who don't learn from the past ... etc
(03:47:06 PM) NathalieB1: no we should not stop looking at the past. if you all keep stating that there was nothing wrong with the way things were done in the past, they are not going to change
(03:47:17 PM) sjamaan: Looking at good & bad examples help in figuring out how to do it better
(03:47:33 PM) Kariboe: I'm not saying it was right or wrong .. I'm just saying we should try to find a better solution now ..
(03:47:49 PM) Kariboe: we are discussing basicly the same issues for more than 3 hours now ..
(03:48:06 PM) THLU: Hi I was only 'AWAY' for 1 hour....
(03:48:09 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: This particular post is a good example, actually. How it should be done: post a clearer question if that's what's really being asked
(03:48:20 PM) THLU: \back
(03:48:22 PM) sjamaan: And then once the decision is about to be made, ask if people have objections
(03:48:39 PM) NathalieB1: because it is a very important issue, it has been a very important issue for the past year and it will continue to be an important issue (one driving people away) when not dealt with
(03:48:47 PM) sjamaan: +1
(03:48:54 PM) Kariboe: I think all understand that 'something' is/was wrong in the way we communicate
(03:49:00 PM) THLU: I started to read this discussion...
(03:49:06 PM) Kariboe: there are plenty of examples where we could have done better
(03:49:20 PM) Kariboe: ok .. I think we can all agree on that :-)
(03:49:30 PM) THLU: but I give up....
(03:49:34 PM) Svennie: if it was that important why didn't you reply on the first mail then?
(03:49:37 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: Exactly. And that means we should analyze those examples and figure out how it went wrong
(03:49:43 PM) sjamaan: And fix that the next time
(03:49:55 PM) NathalieB1: what first mail are you talking about
(03:50:14 PM) sjamaan: Svennie: The first mail wasn't about switching Chamilo to 5.3. It was asking about examples of other projects
(03:50:28 PM) sjamaan: It also mentioned passingly that it was *too early* to switch Chamilo
(03:50:31 PM) Kariboe: please keep also in mind that one year ago the project Chamilo was new .. with no infrastructure, support website, mailing lists, procedures or agreements
(03:50:50 PM) ScaraMcDuck: we can keep going on about this forever and it won't change a thing
(03:51:19 PM) Kariboe: ScaraMcDuck: I already asked two times for a summary with things we should change
(03:51:24 PM) ScaraMcDuck: so if it helps: my mistake, I should have asked for your permission, was just trying to do the right thing to make the deadline which was there right then
(03:51:35 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I know Kariboe ...
(03:52:02 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I wish I had an anwer but I'll use whichever system all the other users and developers want to use
(03:52:04 PM) sjamaan: ScaraMcDuck: Nobody is blaming you. We're just trying to point out an example of how it went wrong
(03:52:14 PM) NathalieB1: why must everything be about "asking" and "giving" permissions.
(03:52:33 PM) ScaraMcDuck: it's not ... it wasn't meant to sound that strong :)
(03:53:06 PM) Kariboe: ok .. can we send everybody home with some homework?
(03:53:20 PM) NathalieB1: it is about letting people know what's up. what is going to change, when ... so people can adjust their planning to it
(03:53:26 PM) Kariboe: do discuss on the next irc meeting: how do we see our internal communication?
(03:53:33 PM) Kariboe: and external communication
(03:53:36 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: OK, easy summary: Announce project decisions ahead of time on the ML, and do it clearly. When the decision is final, post it to the ML too.
(03:54:01 PM) NathalieB1: i don't even think we should care about external communication as long as "internal communication" is not sorted out
(03:54:07 PM) sjamaan: +1
(03:54:16 PM) ScaraMcDuck: + 0,5
(03:54:20 PM) sjamaan: haha
(03:56:15 PM) ***sjamaan would again like to point out the amazing book "producing OSS" http://producingoss.com/en/communications.html
(03:56:42 PM) sjamaan: Most of these issues have been solved before by many other projects
(03:57:02 PM) Kariboe: sjamaan: I have read it :-)
(03:58:04 PM) sjamaan: k, just saying :)
(03:58:28 PM) Kariboe: I created a small overview of all our technical 'infrastructure' for the association .. http://www.mindomo.com/view?m=2deb2c5ee2b1434fbb20a77495bb1901
(03:58:44 PM) Kariboe: If we can find a way to smoothen that all ..
(03:59:09 PM) Systh0: Can someone post the problems (I think there is 3 or maybe 4 major problems pointe dout today) on the ML and ask people to prepare solution for friday. maybe open up a google doc / wiki page so that people can propos thing even if they don't come friday
(03:59:29 PM) Kariboe: so .. I recall my question: let's plan a discussion about this but with better preparation
(04:01:03 PM) Kariboe: and external communication should be a part of the solution too .. how can we attract more people if we only focus on internal communication
(04:01:48 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I would prefer we manage to find something that works internally first though
(04:01:54 PM) sjamaan: Kariboe: Since much of the internal communication is publically visible (it's all in the open, it's an open source project) half of that problem is solved once the internal communication is solved
(04:02:08 PM) THLU: The solution is simple I think, just use a Forum like in the D-time
(04:02:11 PM) sjamaan: If internally everything's crystal clear, an outsider can find that info too
(04:02:26 PM) Systh0: I propose 2 axis of reflexion : past/present/future and technical/nontechnical
(04:02:32 PM) THLU: if there was one good thing in the D-time it was its forum.
(04:02:33 PM) Kariboe: ok
(04:02:45 PM) Systh0: so we have tech/past => why was that decision made ?
(04:02:59 PM) THLU: Internal and external communiction is soloved that way.
(04:03:02 PM) Systh0: tech present => I want to be notified of everything I "follow"
(04:03:20 PM) THLU: an IRC-channel does not work for me....
(04:03:20 PM) Systh0: tech future => discussion about structural changes (for instance)
(04:03:37 PM) Systh0: nontech / past => faq, how-to, documentation
(04:03:40 PM) sjamaan: THLU: A forum does not work for me. It's all very personal, which is part of the problem I think
(04:04:07 PM) Systh0: non-tech present : bug / help me to do that /
(04:04:16 PM) Systh0: non tech future => features demands
(04:04:16 PM) THLU: For as far i can see you're the only one...
(04:04:34 PM) sjamaan: THLU: Fair enough
(04:05:12 PM) Kariboe: Systh0: can you summarize that on a wiki page?
(04:05:18 PM) Kariboe: ;-)
(04:05:31 PM) Kariboe: http://support.chamilo.org/projects/chamilo-20/wiki
(04:05:32 PM) Systh0: give me an address ;)
(04:05:55 PM) THLU: a lot of people meassure a projects activity and credibility on the forum's activity..
(04:06:01 PM) Systho [~Systho@92.241-200-80.adsl-static.isp.belgacom.be] entered the room.
(04:06:28 PM) Systh0: THLU => true and also latest release/update
(04:06:28 PM) sjamaan: THLU: That's a straw man. The same thing works for mailinglists or whatever other system you can come up with
(04:06:43 PM) Kariboe: http://support.chamilo.org/projects/chamilo-20/wiki/Communication_Channels
(04:07:03 PM) THLU: for mailingslist you'll have to subscribe first.
(04:07:07 PM) Systh0: sjamaan I disagree => anonymous user will just go on the forum page and check latest message in different topics
(04:07:19 PM) Systh0: much quicker than subscribing to mailing list
(04:07:20 PM) Kariboe: I suggest we leave the discussion here .. and everybody adds his own part on that wiki page
(04:07:35 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: You can browse the archives of mailinglists anonymously too without subscribing
(04:07:53 PM) sjamaan: And find it through search engines
(04:08:05 PM) Systh0: yes I can but lambda users don't want to
(04:08:11 PM) ScaraMcDuck: (that's why I suggested nabble ...)
(04:08:21 PM) sjamaan: Systh0: That's why it's good to distinguish between tech and nontech
(04:08:35 PM) Svennie: But i believe that irc discussions aren't bad either, as long as the results could be saved somewhere
(04:08:46 PM) THLU: and where will tech and nontech meet???
(04:08:47 PM) Svennie: because we already solved lots of issues by the direct feedback we have here
(04:09:02 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I have archives of every singe bit that I attended ...
(04:09:13 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I could post those "somewhere"
(04:10:40 PM) THLU: my experiance now is that irc is not the way to go.
(04:10:56 PM) THLU: I was only away for 1 hour leaving irc open...
(04:11:32 PM) ScaraMcDuck: it does give somewhat of a false impression of things because of the direct nature of it
(04:11:52 PM) THLU: but to tak part of the discussion i would have to read everything first, to be part of the discussion
(04:12:27 PM) THLU: but if i did that I probably be allone when was finished. :-)
(04:12:43 PM) THLU: and the discussion would be over.
(04:13:25 PM) Svennie: agreed ludwig, but using another channel would probably not have this much feedback
(04:13:32 PM) Kariboe: NathalieB1: Do you have time this week to write some stuff about this on the wiki?
(04:13:41 PM) Svennie: this is the closest thing we could get to virtually meet
(04:14:36 PM) THLU: For a meeting it's ok.
(04:15:07 PM) Svennie: the problem is that we have used already tons of ways of communication methods
(04:15:16 PM) Svennie: but the only platform where we get this amount of feedback / discussions
(04:15:18 PM) Svennie: is here
(04:15:26 PM) Svennie: i mean if you would have a forum
(04:15:40 PM) Svennie: and you have the same amount of discussion then you would already have more then 20 pages of posts
(04:15:54 PM) Svennie: if you are then gone for an hour it's even worse to read through it
(04:16:17 PM) THLU: I don't think so, becuase yout would have the time team to read it and to think about your answer
(04:17:05 PM) Kariboe left the room (quit: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024001]).
(04:17:10 PM) THLU: now yyou don't have the time to think about the answer...
(04:18:02 PM) THLU: And i could correct my typing errors.... ;-)
(04:18:24 PM) Svennie: if we would save the logs somewhere it's always possible to add some after discussions
(04:19:24 PM) THLU: But it would be difficult to categorise all that.
(04:19:29 PM) Svennie: Don't get me wrong i'm not opposed to another platform, as long as someone can guarantee me that there is the same amount activity as here, and because need to change and that will take time / work we would need to demand that the activity is bigger then here
(04:20:17 PM) THLU: The IRC works for now. But if you have a lot of users, I hope we will have on day, It will be confusing.
(04:20:33 PM) Svennie: but there is a user forum
(04:20:42 PM) Svennie: there is a dev forum, but it isn't used
(04:20:45 PM) Svennie: there is a dev mailing list
(04:20:47 PM) Svennie: there is a dev wiki
(04:20:49 PM) Svennie: there is a support website
(04:21:03 PM) Svennie: we almost have every possible communication tool available
(04:21:23 PM) ScaraMcDuck: we seem to have more tools then actuals devs :p
(04:21:39 PM) Svennie: but it has only been used in the past as one way communication lane from the lead developers to the others
(04:21:39 PM) THLU: just wanted to say that. ;-)
(04:21:48 PM) THLU: that's the problem I think.
(04:21:52 PM) Svennie: don't want to offend you ludwig ;)
(04:22:05 PM) Svennie: I also would like the best way for communication
(04:22:17 PM) Svennie: but communication means a two way conversation
(04:22:22 PM) Svennie: and not a one way press release
(04:22:26 PM) sjamaan: heh
(04:22:33 PM) sjamaan: The website's "news" is for that, isn't it?
(04:22:37 PM) Svennie: correct
(04:22:53 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if it's a press release then "ain't that great?"
(04:23:10 PM) ScaraMcDuck: no free iPads at the exit though
(04:23:14 PM) THLU: I'me sure if there was a forum used like in the D-days, I would be much further now.
(04:23:41 PM) THLU: frankly the website sucks...
(04:24:04 PM) THLU: you'll have to go through all the languages to not mis anything...
(04:24:18 PM) THLU: some items are posted only in dutch,
(04:24:28 PM) THLU: some ony in english,
(04:24:36 PM) THLU: some only in spanish...
(04:24:40 PM) Svennie: i don't like the website either
(04:24:43 PM) Svennie: i don't like drupal as such
(04:25:07 PM) THLU: I don't think you can blame the system.
(04:25:21 PM) THLU: I agree you shouold use chamilo 2.0 it self...
(04:25:33 PM) Svennie: in time we will ludwig
(04:25:46 PM) Svennie: but don't you agree with me that we should first try to get all the usability stuff / issues and so fixed
(04:25:50 PM) Svennie: before we move there?
(04:26:14 PM) Svennie: i mean, as far as we know there is no one in production stage with chamilo 2
(04:26:22 PM) Svennie: it should be pretty dump to use that as our backbone right now isn't it?
(04:27:23 PM) Svennie: dump lol, force of habbit 88
(04:29:26 PM) THLU: but now they are spending a lot of money to build a website to promote a Chamilo,
(04:30:17 PM) NathalieB1: we have been in production stage with chamilo 2.0 since september
(04:30:24 PM) NathalieB1: ehb is using it as a portal
(04:30:29 PM) NathalieB1: ehb is using it for the survey
(04:30:32 PM) THLU: I don't think you need a completely finsched Chamilo 2.0 to us as website...
(04:30:39 PM) NathalieB1: all production i would think
(04:30:47 PM) THLU: you only need a few 'modules'
(04:31:07 PM) THLU: the core is allready stable you made us believe.
(04:31:19 PM) ScaraMcDuck: we would need the anonymous access for the website though :p
(04:31:31 PM) NathalieB1: we need it anyway ;-)
(04:31:44 PM) ScaraMcDuck: we really, REALLY do :D
(04:31:56 PM) NathalieB1: they can keep their website for commercial purposes without a problem
(04:32:15 PM) THLU: De rode ridder is already running for a few years now....
(04:32:32 PM) THLU: isn't that based on chamilo....
(04:32:34 PM) ScaraMcDuck: that's a very, very ... VERY old version in desperate need of an update
(04:32:35 PM) THLU: at first...
(04:32:49 PM) ScaraMcDuck: (and I need anonymous access for that as well)
(04:32:55 PM) THLU: ;-)
(04:33:07 PM) ScaraMcDuck: all other unique functionality has already been ported to C2
(04:33:18 PM) THLU: so priority 1 anonymous access
(04:33:31 PM) THLU: priority 2: goo forum..
(04:33:32 PM) Svennie: btw, all production != weblcms with entire repository (which is basically 75% of the system)
(04:33:46 PM) THLU: and everithing discussed here is solved ;-)
(04:33:51 PM) THLU: everything
(04:34:56 PM) THLU: Priority 2: good working forum... :-p
(04:35:11 PM) Svennie: which is now using content objects
(04:35:21 PM) Svennie: and thats good in an elearning environment
(04:35:28 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if it weren't for the fact that I've got a few dozain comic covers that need a few layers of digital colour ... I'd probably already have invested some time in it
(04:36:11 PM) THLU: can't you make an offer ScaraMcDuck...
(04:36:24 PM) Systh0: I've submitted a first version of the wiki page
(04:36:26 PM) THLU: then I'me sure we get value for the money.... ;-)
(04:36:40 PM) Systh0: feel free to change everything ;)
(04:36:48 PM) THLU: now I'me not so sure.....
(04:36:53 PM) Systh0: it's only my opinion and my summary ;)
(04:37:00 PM) ScaraMcDuck: it's no longer a matter of money Ludwig ... just time :)
(04:37:22 PM) THLU: I know....
(04:37:33 PM) ScaraMcDuck: and I really, really enjoy the non-C2 thing as well ... so ... no luck, I commend you for trying though ;-)
(04:37:57 PM) THLU: I'm sorry but I think the same way...
(04:38:38 PM) THLU: I'm not in it for the money....
(04:38:55 PM) Svennie: true.dat :)
(04:39:27 PM) ScaraMcDuck: now if only Disney would get off their lazy ***** and ask me to do some colouring for Uncle Scrooge I'd be a somewhat happier man :p
(04:39:46 PM) Systh0: hahaha
(04:40:24 PM) Systh0: did you apply ?
(04:40:27 PM) Svennie: couldn't you take the first step yourself? :)
(04:40:31 PM) ScaraMcDuck: that'd probably be UC 2.0 :-S
(04:40:53 PM) ScaraMcDuck: I could ... but could I really abandon you lads to a somewhat scary faith :p
(04:41:14 PM) Svennie: well not really
(04:41:19 PM) Svennie: i would like to be a rollercoaster builder
(04:41:25 PM) Svennie: and since disney has a lot of amusment parks ;)
(04:41:27 PM) Svennie: once you are in xD
(04:41:55 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if you knew Uncle Scrooge you'd know hardly anyone gets into the money bin :p
(04:42:25 PM) Svennie: :P
(04:42:26 PM) Systho left the room (quit: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101206121845]).
(04:44:17 PM) Systh0: Svennie
(04:44:28 PM) Systh0: I'm sorry to get you back to the real chamilo worl
(04:44:37 PM) Svennie: no problem :)
(04:44:53 PM) Systh0: but I've finished writing some of my tests and when I try to install chamilo
(04:45:05 PM) Systh0: I run into the same problem your students found (I guess)
(04:45:11 PM) Svennie: ok
(04:45:17 PM) Systh0: install stops after config file has been written
(04:45:22 PM) Svennie: same with my students
(04:45:25 PM) Svennie: but i still need to look at it
(04:45:30 PM) Systh0: have you found the problem already or should I dive into the code ?
(04:45:42 PM) Svennie: it's my task for tomorrow => internship days are on thursday with us
(04:45:53 PM) Svennie: where we spend an entire day with checking the code of our students + helping them a lot
(04:46:55 PM) THLU: I sounds like the error I had before...
(04:47:31 PM) ScaraMcDuck: now you've all gone and done it ... curious about the error and opening Zend right now :p
(04:47:45 PM) THLU: In my case... not everything was pulled from bitbucket...
(04:47:56 PM) THLU: because of missing dirs...
(04:48:24 PM) ScaraMcDuck: will add placeholders for those ASAP ludwig
(04:51:24 PM) ScaraMcDuck: pushed the changes Ludwig ... it could / should be okay now
(04:52:03 PM) THLU: for the dev or for the stable???
(04:52:10 PM) ScaraMcDuck: dev
(04:54:32 PM) THLU: ok I will delete the dev and pull it again to see if I get everything.
(04:54:43 PM) THLU: locally of course
(04:55:21 PM) Svennie: nice
(04:55:51 PM) Svennie left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(04:56:13 PM) THLU: I've just pulled the 'stable' and there I get an error with retrieving common/extensions/external_repository_manager/implementation/box
(04:56:18 PM) pjbr left the room (quit: Quit: pjbr).
(04:56:50 PM) ScaraMcDuck: if I remember correctly there was / is some kind of problem with the . in box.net
(04:58:18 PM) THLU: it's not urgent I think,
(04:59:17 PM) THLU: I just want to mention it, as i see the error in the script output...
(05:00:35 PM) ScaraMcDuck: fixed as well now :)
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